Michael Barnett, JCCV and AJN Watch
Further to our post re Michael Barnett’s letter http://tinyurl.com/kvpjue , here’s a short response to his childish bleatings, with the hope that this reaches those to whom he addressed his letter.
So, Michael is raising a question about homophobia, and attempting to eradicate it from the local jewish community, and no doubt the whole world, and you see it as childish. Go figure.
From Barnett’s letter:
Ten years ago, in 1999, Aleph Melbourne applied to the JCCV for membership. This was an extremely bitter time for the group and as a result of the failed application I was exposed to a level of hate and intolerance that would shock most people.
The attempt by Aleph to become a constituent member of the JCCV always was and still is one of sheer arrogance and provocation. Why on earth should a miniscule group (if it indeed there is such a group) of insignificant nobodies, whose sole aim is to promote and publicize abnormal sexual behaviour, be admitted to an organization representing Victorian Jewry?
Homosexuality is not abnormal sexual behaviour. The sole aim of Aleph is not to promote and publicise that behaviour but to bring like minded people together. Don’t you get that?
What is sheer arrogance is believing that you are way too important to allow a minority group into your organisation. What’s wrong? afraid they might kick sand in your face?
(Yes, whether Barnett likes it or not homosexuality is not normal. Until recently EVERONE accepted this. The advent of ‘political correctness’ meant that saying so is limited to honest private conversations by people, who are not interested in bitchy responses and “hate and intolerance’ accusations.
Homosexuality is normal, whatever that actually means, and the fact that everyone has now accepted this means you are behind the eight ball. There is no political correctness associated with it, just acceptance that people have a wide variety of sexual tastes, the fact that you don’t like that doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
The first sign of your abnormality is the fact that heterosexuals don’t go around advertising and publicizing what they do privately. THAT is normal. Your desperate need for constant publicity (even disgusting parades) announcing and showing off to the world your sexual proclivities – proves this is not normal behaviour.)
You’re joking right? When was the last time you turned the television on to find big breasted women advertising that latest and greatest product? You know that they do that because it turns the men on? The heterosexual types? What about watching the latest soap opera or drama series? Are the hot young couple engage in a bit of straight or gay bonking? I’ve had enough of having the heterosexual lifestyle shoved in my face. The whole of the advertising industry is built on the concept of heterosexual sex selling.
Despite all this, Mr Barnett, we don’t hate you. Really. We just simply are not interested in you and your activities. We really don’t care how you live your life and what you get up to – with whom or how. Most people, knowingly or unknowingly, have homosexual acquaintances socially or professionally. And they get along fine. Why? Because they don’t bore us with their personal stories.
As far as I can tell, he’s not boring you with his life story, merely highlighting the fact that you have a very ingrained homophobia that needs to be challenged. The fact that you have homosexual acquaintances that you don’t know about further highlights this point. The reason they don’t bore you with their personal stories is because you’re a homophobe.
Go ahead and do whatever you like. But please SHUT UP about it and stop shoving your lifestyle down our throats.
Nothing is being shoved down your throat. Nobody is asking you join in a bit of bum fun.
As for you personally, it is obvious that aside from your homosexuality you have nothing to offer or indeed talk about. How sad.
Shows how much you know, and this is just plain rude on a very personal level. You should leave such comments to rabid llamas.
So don’t be so surprised when decent, normal and respectable (religious and irreligious) organizations don’t welcome you to their forum.
There is nothing decent, normal or respectable about religious types that use outdated fairy tales to guide their lives. You know, deep down, you’re wrong and fooling yourself.
Most of the world is sickened by homosexuality. That’s just human nature and no legislation will help with their attitude. As for those who follow the Torah and Halacha – which categorically bans it – they cannot ever see it as an acceptable lifestyle. They can’t. The Torah is not theirs to alter, modify or modernize.
Homosexuality is not a lifestyle. It’s a orientation. You need to get your head around that concept. The Torah has been altered many times over the years, and in any case, this is you hiding behind it.
All that still does not mean we ‘hate’ you and your type. Observant Jews don’t hate. We don’t hate Shabbat-desecrators and we don’t hate non-Kosher consumers and we don’t hate homosexuals. We get along fine with all types of irreligious Jews – as long as they don’t try to attack our Jewishness and propagate their anti-Torah lifestyles.
You do realise that your jewishness has the capacity to cause great stress, and that your words don’t match your actions. You do hate ‘gays’ you quite proudly use homophobic language to express that hatred.
We have no idea what attacks you refer to, but as long as there was nothing physical (and I am sure that there wasn’t) big deal. You asked for it by repeatedly opening your mouth and provoking most of the Jewish community. Don’t be so precious. You knew all along what you were going into, so don’t bleat when someone replies. Did you really expect no one to respond?
What you fail to understand is that your words, not a physical assault, leads others to believe that homosexuals are lesser citizens, and therefore it is ok to bash them. It means that a young jewish person grows up thinking homosexuality is wrong and that may cause them to commit suicide or worse, become a gay hating rabbi.
Rabbi Ingram isn’t “hiding’ behind Jewish law. He is quoting it “unapologetically and unsympatheticallyâ€. That law is what has guided us for thousands of years and will continue to do so – long after Barnett has been forgotten.
He is hiding behind the law. He assumes the torah gives him permission to lump gay people in with pedophiles, animal fuckers and incest criminals. The torah is quite simply wrong, and you need to accept that. You can’t continue to use that to justify your treatment of people. Laws change all the time, you know that.
Repeat. It is not the rabbis who denounce. It is the Torah.
Sounds like the rabbits are using the torah as an excuse to justify their position on sexuality. That sounds a lot like hiding to me. Why not step out and be honest about how you feel, not how some stupid book tells you to feel.
Finally, here’s some free advice for you. If you are really seeking to find a place where your type of ‘Judaism’ is acceptable, why not visit a friendly Reform/Liberal temple, where the rabbis and rabbiesses have unlimited freedom and leeway and (as they already disregard most of the Torah) will have no problems in making you feel at home. And who knows? Maybe at some time in the future, they will invite you to become their representative on the JCCV.
You really are a silly man. I don’t recall in any of his writings that Michael was asking to be a member of any temple or even the JCCV. He’s pointing out how intolerant you really are. It really is quite telling of your limited understanding of humans. He doesn’t want to be a part of your religion or your organisations, he wants you to stop the hate speech, its really that simple. You seem to assume he wants to join a temple and pray to god. I rather suspect he’d sooner stick his head up a smelly nuns bits. (I’m sorry, I don’t know what the jewish equivalent of nun is, so I slipped into my old catholic ways)
And finally to the comments, that AJN Watch have closed off:
AJN Watch said…
We think we have been more than fair to Michael Barnett by linking to his letters and opinions as well publishing some of his views.
Regarding his complaint that he is not tolerated by the community and who won’t accept him as a member of the JCCV, we have explained why in our view the JCCV has been 100% correct in refusing to accommodate a single-issue individual who represents hardly anyone.This was followed by Barnett comparing this blog to the Nazi Holocaust and we said that his comment is idiotic.
We feel that when a debate sinks to such childish name-calling – it is time to call it quits.
So until that time than an issue of genuine interest/importance arises around this topic, AJN Watch blog will no longer accept any comments about it and reverts to our main objective of observing and commenting on prejudice, misrepresentation and monopolistic abuse of power in the pages of the Australian Jewish News.
We will continue to spotlight errors, expose their misrepresentations and vigorously respond to items that malign or defame the Orthodox community.
We apologize to all those comments didn’t appear this time, but we are confident that you appreciate our rationale.
Monday, August 31, 2009 3:25:00 PM
Sounds more like you don’t like the discussion or you’ve had a reason to rethink, or maybe somebody told you to pull your head in.
The whole matter is quite ridiculous beyond belief. It’s time that religious nutters stopped using their sacred texts on the rest of the world, and were held to account for their hate and vilifying speech.
I, for one, found parts of Bruce Llama’s rebutting rant offensive although he is right on a number of issues. I understand the anger but to let it lead to undignified ridicule and hate is an indication of a case lost. I am referring to
” Nobody is asking you join in a bit of bum fun.”
“…he’d sooner stick his head up a smelly nuns bits”
and
“There is nothing decent, normal or respectable about religious types that use outdated fairy tales.”
That is surely the very definition of normal religion and what many people use for defining what is decent or respectable. Church baptisms, christenings, weddings and funerals all based on fairy tales and all very ‘normal’. And the comments about hiding behind religious law is naive to religious doctrine and practice and is simply playing the devil and asking to be dismissed. I warned Michael that his religious-based argument would be resoundly dismissed and it was, just as it has been for thousands of years. Just as the Torah commands.
From my fundamentalist Christian up bringing, I would never fight them at the religious level for they, by definition, are right. If you don’t want to join the religion, don’t fight their religion. Fight it at the secular level. Is JCCV a secular organisation and if so, why is it letting some groups’ religious beliefs override the beliefs of others? Why is its secularism limited? Why can they work with homosexuals in some situations but not on membership? Why do they cope with other law breakers but not homosexuals? Claim the high moral ground that is beyond the religion.
Maybe comparing Judaism with my experience isn’t fair given that Jewish culture and and religion are so intertwined but it does seem to me the current stance is not going to get far.
I also think the claim about acceptance of homosexuality as normal is plain wrong:
“Homosexuality is normal, whatever that actually means, and the fact that everyone has now accepted this…”.
Acceptance and tolerance do not necessarily equate with ideas of normality. I have found many gay men to be clueless to explain why and how homosexuality is normal. Most people do not know about homosexuality in animal species – most sexual animals do not display exclusive heterosexuality.
Last week I gave a HIV presentation at a school with very supportive teachers. Afterwards, the science teacher, who said all the right things about gay acceptance personally and for the kids, said that the rectum was not designed for sex hence the increased risk of HIV transmission. I alerted him to the prostate, expansion width of the anus and the Bonobo chimps, our closest living relatives, who great each other with anal penetration. Try telling that to a rabbi or preacher.
Thank you Eric.
I have little respect for religion – it is a human construct, and people may belong or not belong.
Sphincters contract and relax as required. He may be confusing it with a valve that is generally only one way.
Bruce. Once you totally dismiss religion as fairy tales, you have nothiung in common with religious Jews or any other faith. Sure if we disregard the words of God, why indeed only regarding homosexuality? Why not also “pedophiles, animal fuckers and incest criminals” as you call them?
Some people obviously have that kind of “orientation”.
So you think that the JCCV should welcome Barnett-like “animal-fuckers” to represent those types? Why not? Who says that an animal fucker is any different to a gay or indeed a hetero?
They way things are going it won’t be too long now that these AFs will be an integral part of society and then we’ll have a Barnett type campaigning for their ‘partners’ to be invited to weddings and barmitzvahs…
Thanks for your comments Grey Nurse.
I have totally dismissed religion as fairy tales. There is no god and there are certainly no words of god.
Your point is wrong, sex is between consenting adults. I don’t know of any animal that gives consent. Its not possible for children to give consent. Shame on you for thinking that religion controls morality.
I don’t give a flying load of larks vomit about the JCCV or who they let in.
Bruce,
In some ways Michael Barnett has acted like the bull in the proverbial bull in the china shop in his discussion with JCCV. Having said that I also believe his motives should also be applauded. He has not hidden behind an anomymous blog like many of his detractors have.
The JCCV claims to be an umbrella orgainsation that is a “rainbow organisation” covering a range of jewish groups from the very secular to the very orthodox. The only group that has been denied admission is Aleph a jewish gay group. Unfortuntaley so many jewish groups supported the refusal and even sadder were those who would be considered to be very secular and very much non observant of the torah and halacha.
To some extant I prefer those homophobes like the person who is behind AJN Watch to be out of the closet. The more they spout thgeir nonsense the more they look stupid. AJN Watch is aimed to monitor the AJN which many of the orthodox community has strayed and is no longer representing or promoting the views of the “orthodox jews” The only problem is with this is which is the correct orthodox. Within the orthodox community there are more views and opinions than sects. It is really a case of my Rabbi has a bigger (insert own noun here) than yours.
JJCV as that rainbow organisation has problems with addressing in a serious manner so many social problems that why should gayness be different. Until JCCV is able and does address these issues it will continue to be seen as an irrelevant organisation within thge jewish community beholden to any group(s) that is able to fund its operation.
lonewolf@comcen.com.au
Sometimes a bull in the china shop is the way to get peoples attention. If you were a fly buzzing around they just need fly spray. Bull’s are much harder to deal with.
Its a pity that the JCCV doesn’t have the courage to take the homophobes to task, their language is most unbecoming and they are in the ideal position to comment and challenge some of the more outlandish claims made by jewish groups. As you say, they appear to be largely irrelevant.
Welcome lonewolf, thanks for your comments.
Would you discriminate against animal-lovers? It seems so from what you write. But in many cultures this is a very acceptable practice. Arabs have always practiced sex with goats and camels and the holy Koran quotes from Muhammad the rules on how one must purify himself after having sex with a camel.
Despite the Koran’s approval for this practice – unlike the bible and torah which ban bestiality along with incest and homosexuality – I doubt that if a Muslim who loves his camel applied to the local islam groups to join them and represent those of his persuasion, if he would be welcomed.
(I may be wrong about this. Maybe someone knows)
Jerry, you have the same IP address as Grey Nurse. I don’t mind you making comments, but its a bit hard to take you seriously if you can’t even be bothered to use the same nickname.
Anyway, to your rather odd point. If anyone wants to have sex with animals, good luck to them. However, animals have no capacity to voice their approval or objection. That’s unethical.
I don’t give a shit what the bible, torah or the koran say. It’s all a load of bullocks and should be tossed out and completely ignored. A bit like you really
Happy camel fucking.
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