Anyway, to your rather odd point. If anyone wants to have sex with animals, good luck to them. However, animals have no capacity to voice their approval or objection. That’s unethical.

I don’t give a shit what the bible, torah or the koran say. It’s all a load of bullocks and should be tossed out and completely ignored. A bit like you really

Happy camel fucking.

Despite the Koran’s approval for this practice – unlike the bible and torah which ban bestiality along with incest and homosexuality – I doubt that if a Muslim who loves his camel applied to the local islam groups to join them and represent those of his persuasion, if he would be welcomed.
(I may be wrong about this. Maybe someone knows)

Its a pity that the JCCV doesn’t have the courage to take the homophobes to task, their language is most unbecoming and they are in the ideal position to comment and challenge some of the more outlandish claims made by jewish groups. As you say, they appear to be largely irrelevant.

Welcome lonewolf, thanks for your comments.

In some ways Michael Barnett has acted like the bull in the proverbial bull in the china shop in his discussion with JCCV. Having said that I also believe his motives should also be applauded. He has not hidden behind an anomymous blog like many of his detractors have.

The JCCV claims to be an umbrella orgainsation that is a “rainbow organisation” covering a range of jewish groups from the very secular to the very orthodox. The only group that has been denied admission is Aleph a jewish gay group. Unfortuntaley so many jewish groups supported the refusal and even sadder were those who would be considered to be very secular and very much non observant of the torah and halacha.

To some extant I prefer those homophobes like the person who is behind AJN Watch to be out of the closet. The more they spout thgeir nonsense the more they look stupid. AJN Watch is aimed to monitor the AJN which many of the orthodox community has strayed and is no longer representing or promoting the views of the “orthodox jews” The only problem is with this is which is the correct orthodox. Within the orthodox community there are more views and opinions than sects. It is really a case of my Rabbi has a bigger (insert own noun here) than yours.

JJCV as that rainbow organisation has problems with addressing in a serious manner so many social problems that why should gayness be different. Until JCCV is able and does address these issues it will continue to be seen as an irrelevant organisation within thge jewish community beholden to any group(s) that is able to fund its operation.

lonewolf@comcen.com.au

I have totally dismissed religion as fairy tales. There is no god and there are certainly no words of god.

Your point is wrong, sex is between consenting adults. I don’t know of any animal that gives consent. Its not possible for children to give consent. Shame on you for thinking that religion controls morality.

I don’t give a flying load of larks vomit about the JCCV or who they let in.

So you think that the JCCV should welcome Barnett-like “animal-fuckers” to represent those types? Why not? Who says that an animal fucker is any different to a gay or indeed a hetero?

They way things are going it won’t be too long now that these AFs will be an integral part of society and then we’ll have a Barnett type campaigning for their ‘partners’ to be invited to weddings and barmitzvahs…

I have little respect for religion – it is a human construct, and people may belong or not belong.

Sphincters contract and relax as required. He may be confusing it with a valve that is generally only one way.

That is surely the very definition of normal religion and what many people use for defining what is decent or respectable. Church baptisms, christenings, weddings and funerals all based on fairy tales and all very ‘normal’. And the comments about hiding behind religious law is naive to religious doctrine and practice and is simply playing the devil and asking to be dismissed. I warned Michael that his religious-based argument would be resoundly dismissed and it was, just as it has been for thousands of years. Just as the Torah commands.

From my fundamentalist Christian up bringing, I would never fight them at the religious level for they, by definition, are right. If you don’t want to join the religion, don’t fight their religion. Fight it at the secular level. Is JCCV a secular organisation and if so, why is it letting some groups’ religious beliefs override the beliefs of others? Why is its secularism limited? Why can they work with homosexuals in some situations but not on membership? Why do they cope with other law breakers but not homosexuals? Claim the high moral ground that is beyond the religion.

Maybe comparing Judaism with my experience isn’t fair given that Jewish culture and and religion are so intertwined but it does seem to me the current stance is not going to get far.

I also think the claim about acceptance of homosexuality as normal is plain wrong:
“Homosexuality is normal, whatever that actually means, and the fact that everyone has now accepted this…”.
Acceptance and tolerance do not necessarily equate with ideas of normality. I have found many gay men to be clueless to explain why and how homosexuality is normal. Most people do not know about homosexuality in animal species – most sexual animals do not display exclusive heterosexuality.

Last week I gave a HIV presentation at a school with very supportive teachers. Afterwards, the science teacher, who said all the right things about gay acceptance personally and for the kids, said that the rectum was not designed for sex hence the increased risk of HIV transmission. I alerted him to the prostate, expansion width of the anus and the Bonobo chimps, our closest living relatives, who great each other with anal penetration. Try telling that to a rabbi or preacher.