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So, a Brisbane man, Graham Preston, has been jailed for not paying his fines worth $8,000.  He was fined for trespassing and resisting arrest.  He places himself between women trying to enter a clinic and intimidates and stops them from entering.
The women are heading into the clinic for an abortion. Â This christian puts himself between the woman and the clinic. Â For the last ten years he has been fined. Â He’s refused to pay. Â He’s been asked over 100 times to pay the bill, but has refused.
Christian fuck-wits now think this serial pest is a hero. Â Me old mate Spinksys says this “Jailed for Being Pro-life”
Pro-lifer Graham Preston is facing 8 months in jail for peacefully protesting outside of abortion clinics. He is a strong reminder of the possible repercussions that can be faced for standing against immorality
No, he wasn’t peaceful at all. Â He was trespassing and making a nuisance of himself. Â He was yelling in the faces of women trying to go about their personal business.
Billy the Mule has a bit to say too:
He is back at it again, willing to lose his freedoms on the behalf of the unborn. Graham is now back in prison for another eight months. His crime? Seeking to prevent those who would continue the genocide of the unborn. Just as earlier brave culture warriors – usually Christians – fought the evil slave trade, so too today some heroic believers are putting their life on the line for the unborn.
Actually, if Preston was interested in doing his bit, he would pay the fine so that he could continue to protest. Â Now he’s locked up. Â And his crime was that he didn’t pay the fines, not for preventing ‘genocide of the unborn’. Â This is nothing like fighting the slave trade, and he is not putting his life on the line for anyone. Â He broke the law, he refused to pay the fine and has been locked up. Â It’s really simple.
Meanwhile, Wally over at the ACL says this
Brisbane father Graham Preston has been jailed for eight months for peacefully protesting in front of the doors of Brisbane abortion clinics and refusing to move.
No, he was fined for trespass. Â He was fined for getting in the way. Â He was jailed because he didn’t pay those fines, he was not jailed for peacefully protesting.
Christians just love to overlook the obvious. Â Call him a hero because they really need a hero.
The reality is the ‘protest’ is a vigil that sees someone sitting on the stairs blocking people trying to gain access to the building.  People visiting the clinic have to step over the protesters.  They sit there with their little signs that say “Abortion kills children” and think that they’re doing gods work.
Those women visiting are confronted by people who think they know better. Â I don’t know what it’s like to decide to have an abortion, but I think people making that decision have already done a lot of thinking. Â This emotional protest is pretty grotesque and designed to make the woman feel guilt and cause deep emotional distress.
Preston is a fool, he should have paid the fines and ceased his obstruction. Â Instead he is now costing us more money and christians nutters reckon this is a good thing.
The values of christians is pretty fucked up. Â They want everyone to play by their rules alone. Â When the police or the state step in to remove them, they scream about being the victims and not having the freedom to protest.
How quick some are to judge others. I ask the person who wrote, “He was yelling in the faces of women trying to go about their personal business,” were you there? What some people don’t appreciate is that Christians attempt to live by rules that have been set for all people to follow. This includes the Commandment to not kill. Preston may not be sending this message in the wisest way, but he is trying to honour what he knows to be the right thing to do. I’m also aware of the post abortion trauma caused to many women and the fact that many who have counselling don’t proceed with the intended abortion. Do you want to be the one to stand in the way of the last wake up call these people might get. I also hope that you consider your life to be precious…..I do. While you’re contemplating, take a look around…the “christian nutters” as someone put include many scientists, medical staff, accountants, tradespeople or rescue workers that you will likely ask the help and advice of many times in your life and reckon you won’t question their beliefs before you accept the offer. We appear to be entering a time where laws fail to protect people from themselves. More people need to stand up for what is good rather than what feels good.
What’s wrong with judging others? We all do it. Were you there? Did you see what happened? Christians make no such effort to live by the rules in the bible, that much is clear. To even suggest that everyone has to live by the rules that have been ‘set for all people to follow’ is arrogant beyond belief.
There is no god, plain and simple. Whether someone believes or not matters not to me, until you use that belief to tell others how to live and how to behave.
Abortion is none of your business, get your nose out of it and mind your own business.
Hi Bruce,
Hope you’re having a good day and I thank you for taking the time to respond. I think the thing you don’t appreciate here is that Christians don’t claim to make the rules. Did you know that most of Australia’s law is derived for the very rules you seem to detest. What do you see wrong with respecting parents, being faithful to a wife, being content with what you have, not stealing etc? Isn’t this the same foundation that allows us to speak about subjects like this without fear of being jailed or persecuted as is other countries using the “keep your nose out” approach. It’s freedom of speech that is on the line here. How will you react if the law shuts your blog down because it interferes with or offends net surfers looking for a Graham Preston website. I hope you’ll stand on Parliament house and protest and I’ll happily join you with my placard. As I said, I don’t think Preston has taken the wisest approach here, but admire that he has done something to support his belief and also that you put your thoughts out there to be challenged. Are Christians perfect? No way! Are they accountable for their actions? More than you’ll ever know.
If you get to know some personally, you’ll find that like other people, there are some who are great examples of what they’re taught and some others are very poor at it. Most fall somewhere between the two.If some police are corrupt, do we scrap the whole idea of law enforcement or try harder to make it effective? I’ve had the benefit of life with and without Christ. If you see someone who claims to follow His teachings and behaves to the contrary, point it out to them. Don’t we all need a wake up call occasionally? I am confident that if most of the people who consider abortions were in a loving, supportive environment they wouldn’t end up at the clinics. I have a friend who works in mental health picking up the pieces of people who make choices like these. To do nothing is to abandon these people and their babies. If we take the time to acknowledge the complexities of the pregnancy and birth, it becomes hard to attribute it to some “random act of evolution” or to fail to see how precious life is? This is what motivates people like Graham Preston. Of course we all have the freedom to take life for granted too.
Thanks for dropping by Duane.
You’ve put so much in comments. Let me see if I can pick up a few bits for you.
My days are always good- I hope yours are too.
Oh yes, I appreciate that. However, claiming that god did it is just wrong as there is no god.
Laws in Australia are set by the people through our representatives in Parliament, I don’t detest Australian Law.
There’s no law about respecting parents, and if you’re parents are unworthy of respect, why would you respect them?
Feel free to be faithful to your wife, whatever that arrangement is, it’s between you two.
I am content with what I have.
I don’t need any sort of supernatural being to tell me not to steal, that’s just common sense. I don’t steal because I know how I would feel if somebody stole from me.
Nobody is being jailed for free speech. But you have to do it within the laws of the land.
Freedom of speech is no on the line here. Preston did more than proclaim against abortion, he trespassed, blocked the pathway, failed to move when instructed. He could have exercised his free speech on the street, but he didn’t He was jailed for failure to pay his fines. Not for exercising free speech.
If I breech a law, if I’m required to retract or desist then I’ll make a judgement call about that. It’s not in my nature to break the law of the land. Christians are as accountable for their actions as any other citizen. You may be suggesting something about heaven and hell in that line, I’m not sure. Of course, those things just don’t exist.
That sort of says that you think most people who have abortions aren’t in loving, supportive environments. That sounds like a generalisation to me. I’m pretty sure some people want abortions for their own needs, and that’s up to them. People need mental health care for all sorts of things.
Some of these people don’t want you interfering with their lives, you need to mind your own business.
If you took the time to understand what your idea of creation has caused, you’d abandon it. It is only through evolution that birth as we know it is possible. For you to suggest someone actually created women to give birth to live young by pushing the enormous head through that small opening is simply ridiculous.
What motivates Preston and his like is a misguided belief that they think they know what god wants. There is no god. Plain and simple. What he’s doing is a folly. It’s time he did something useful with his life.
Your welcome
Hi Again Bruce,
I really admire your tenacity. It obviously takes great faith on your part to believe in evolution…a theory with the least supporting documentation throughout time (remember it’s a new idea in the scheme of history) Even the idea that you developed lungs and a brain and common sense out of rock and swirling gases that somehow came from a big bang could be straight out of a Hubbard novel, but that’s exactly what I used to think. Have you checked out how many scientists are Christians or even the amount of written historic evidence of the events explained in the Bible? No doubt there’s very little evidence to support that you came from your mother’s womb, but I totally beIieve that you did. Am I a fool for this? Come to think of it I don’t know anyone who ever met Captain Cook and I think you’d call me a fool if I said he never existed…so if you’re like me and want evidence that God does exist, there’s plenty if you look for it. How many personal testimonies would it take for you? Would there ever be enough? and yet you’re willing to base your belief system on a handful of speculation from a small minority rather than the two billion people worldwide who have a personal relationship with the living God of the universe.
Like the old T.V. ad with Darryl Somers , ” you’ll never know if you never go.” Anyway, what I’m getting to is that I totally get your comments in light of your experience, and I don’t expect you to see things from an angle you’ve never experienced. I reckon that you’ll discount pretty much everything a Christian will say in regard to matters of morality and justice. If you think that we mysteriously crawled out from the mud, how can you possibly hold life in the same high regard as someone who believes that we have been designed for a purpose by a caring being and are accountable to an authority greater that the law of the land. Having said this, I still don’t think Preston chose the wisest way to state his case and I’d expect to be jailed in the same situation.
Regarding your understanding of childbirth, did you consider that while pushing that big head through that small hole that an amazing sequence of events occur at the time…the body is contracting in a way that helps the baby to prepare for it’s first breaths, drugs release in the brain to calm the mother and tissues in the body become supple to allow for that little bundle of joy to pass through the canal. Endorphins kick in to relieve the pain of the expectant mother and her body prepares for that vital colostrum to be administerd after birth. To top it off, mum’s memory of the experience fades so she’ll consider going back for more. Evolution you say? I’m betting my life that it’s design. If we use your logic that people just know what’s best for them, you wouldn’t have been fed as a baby, schooled as a child or hugged by your parents and you wouldn’t work because that was someone’s plan and hope for you and their intervention contributes to the wellbeing you enjoy now. (every day by your words)
As for the issue of abortion how is a third party scraping a living being from it’s final stages of development in the womb more palatable to you than a comment on a website? Millions of Jewish people were slaughtered by the self proclaimed “superior race” while other countries “kept their noses out.” At what point do you become involved to prevent the termination of life? 3 months? 8? after birth?
If your brother is depressed and holds a loaded gun to his head and I break his window to discourage him, would the law prosecute me here? Will you tell me to keep my nose out?
I’m sure that Preston will break that window every day of the week. That’s the essence of Christianity as taught by Jesus himself.
Duane
And you have tenacity for coming back!
There’s plenty of evidence for evolution, however, I’m no expert. It makes a lot more sense to me than suggesting that some sort of supernatural being designed it. The story of jesus in the bible is more fanciful than anything Hubbard ever wrote.
So what if christians are scientists? That doesn’t make them right. The bible is nothing more than a work of fiction that people later try to place modern day understanding on to make it match their perception of the universe.
You’d be a fool to believe otherwise. However, the main parts of the evidence for me would be the many siblings either side, the tales of my parents and the fact that they raised me. You can believe whatever you like about my birth.
Come to think of it I don’t know anyone who ever met Captain Cook and I think you’d call me a fool if I said he never existed…so if you’re like me and want evidence that God does exist, there’s plenty if you look for it. How many personal testimonies would it take for you? Would there ever be enough? and yet you’re willing to base your belief system on a handful of speculation from a small minority rather than the two billion people worldwide who have a personal relationship with the living God of the universe.
Oh please. We have numerous accounts of James Cook. There is only one version of the story of god and jesus, it’s the bible, it’s clearly made up. Scientist on the other hand verify and justify their research and make changes as necessary. It’s not faith but good old fashioned hard work that they rely on.
You don’t know what my experience is. I discount the christian faith as it’s obvisouly a work of fiction that has grown out of all control over the last 3,000 years. Time to ditch it.
I don’t think there’s too much mystery about evolution. I hold life in high regard as you only get one, it’s not for you or me to tell others how to live it. There is no purpose to anyone’s life. We live, we die. The purpose is what you make of it.
Let’s face it, the idea that there is any being responsible for creating us and then creating a bizarre birthing system is simply ridiculous. This is really the best idea that your god could come up with? What’s wrong with a smaller birth weight and a pouch, seems to work well for the kangaroos…
What’s best for people is to raise their young – it’s innante and important. Most species do it. It’s all about ensuring that the next generation has a chance of success. For all species, reproduction is the only route to immortality.
Abortion and the holocaust are not even on the same level. It’s really bad taste on your part to even link the two together. The decision to abort is made by the woman, not by some mad man making decisons for the whole of society. Nobody is forced to have an abortion. Shame on you.
Who are you to stand in the way of someone’s desire to end their own life. That’s a choice they make. If you feel so compelled to render assistance, then by all means do so. But that is not the same as deliberately preventing a woman from making the decision to have an abortion. It’s nowhere near the same thing.
As I’ve said before, there is no god. Jesus is a myth and to pretend to be doing his work is to waste your life.
Hi Bruce,
I’m intrigued that you started with,”There is no god, plain and simple.” and then changed to,”It makes a lot more sense to me than suggesting that some sort of supernatural being designed it.” Now you’re back to,”As I’ve said before, there is no god.” I see the second statement being the relevant one. Your belief system appears to be based on bits and pieces you’ve read here and there, without reasonable research. Such was the case for those who “knew” the world was flat. They thought the notion of a spherical world to be ridiculous. Of course those who took the time to experience it first hand got to know otherwise. With the statemant of,”So what if christians are scientists? That doesn’t make them right.” you’re getting somewhere! That’s a great point. Just because anyone is a scientist or an evolution theorist, it doesn’t make them right and at the end of the day. Does what you choose to believe make the truth any more or less valid?
If you keep digging, you’ll find multiple historic accounts of the life and miracles of Jesus by people who were there. These records were also supported by other writings decades afterwards, in some cases, by people like Flavius Josephus. The thing to remember here is that the Bible isn’t one account, but several manuscripts and writings assembled into one book. Why are your numerous accounts of Cook any more valid? There is also supporting evidence from people who have no stake in it one way or another. Having said this, anyone can argue the validity of every historic record all day long, but the difference here is that every moment there are things happening in the world that science can’t explain… but the word of God does. Some are called miracles. Obviously if we don’t venture far from our computers or lounge chairs, chances are that we won’t witness these, apart from reading the many personal accounts if we use a search engine. I challenge you to prove that miracles aren’t real, but do some actual homework first. As for evolution, try turning your P.C.on with a blank hard drive and wait and see how long it takes to add one and one for you. While you’re waiting, throw a pile of old P.C. parts on the table and see how long they take to even become a P.C. with no outside influence. Even based on the speculated timeframe for evolution, surely we’ll see at least one wire connect itself in our lifetime. I don’t think the whole “stuff just happens” cuts it for someone looking for real answers. If evolution stacked up, where are all the petrified skeletons of people with no arms or legs, heads on backwards? Why do we have emotions? Did chaos develop love and hope. These aren’t necessary for survival. Could a totally random act really result in such a well constructed model of human? Sure seems more far fetched that being designed. The whole abortion debate hinges on how you see your life. People who think they own it (as if you could ever really “own” anything in this world) will likely take the “my body, my choice approach.” You said in regard to life ,” It’s all about ensuring that the next generation has a chance of success.” So, you’re revealing here that abortion is preventing a next generation from succeeding? I believe scared women/girls are pressured by situations and other people into making choices they regret later. You are able to state that Hitler was a mad man and yet you are so sure that these people of sound mind when they choose to abort? If we’re going to abandon the sick and needy (including the depressed) in favour of their rights, why not shut down our medical facilities now? The government is spending millions on advertising and warnings on cigarette packets to discourage people from doing what ” is their choice.” Guilt can be every bit as slow and painful death as cancer caused by smoking. Shouldn’t all people get the same care here?
Duane
As I said there isn’t a god. You’ve got a bad case of wishful thinking. Just because something can’t be explained doesn’t make it a miracle, nor does it mean god did it. I don’t know how the universe started, nor do you. I don’t have all the answer, nor do you.
There is no evidence for Jesus, you know there isn’t. And it doesn’t matter. There isn’t a god, therefore jesus is not the son of god.
And see if you can refrain from ludicrous suggestions of waiting for a computer to evolve. It’s a stupid analogy and unworthy of you. For something interesting, go find out about Lawrence Krause and his theories on something from nothing.
Always good questions about where do things come from, our emotions and feelings. There are a lot of possibilities, and just because they can’t be explained to your satisfaction, that doesn’t mean that your god put them there. I quite like the theory that we evolved those things as a way of structuring our society to prosper, it’s hard to survive in the jungle, co-operation helps.
Humanity isn’t in danger of disappearing because of abortion. You may have noticed that plenty of babies are still being born. And surprise, surprise, even those who have an abortion may go on and have a full term pregnancy that results in the birth of a child! Fancy that. And yes, sure there are plenty of people who regret all sorts of things in life, you can’t be hanging around body piercing shops telling kids not to have a piercing or a tattoo because they’ll regret it. A persons right to make a decision about their own life is theirs to make. To suggest that somehow your mythical god owns that life is just rubbish.
Hi Bruce,
It’s a good step for you to admit you don’t have all the answers. So in light of this, you saying that there is no God is more accurately defined by the statement that in your opinion there is no God.
Of course there is scope to ignore the many historical documents and personal testimonies in favour of choosing theories that see life mystically produced from rock and gases, but I, along with 2 billion people on the planet and masses who have gone before us have a different experience to you. You appear to acknowledged that elements like Fe,Cu and Si found in computers can’t produce life or evolve. Want to take a stab at which ones might? Your theory of us evolving feelings and emotions to facilitate prosperity does appear to clash with the “strongest survive” idea that evolutionists like to purport. Our culture generally protects the frail. (at least the physically frail who aren’t wanting to end their so called prosperity)
So, if we take the view of “birds developed wings because they have a need to fly,” I’m sure many people over time could have used these when being attacked by bears, lions etc. but here we are….no wings. Many a man could have used a tougher skin over the years but…. we still have an easily torn skin. I think you’ll find we’ve been vulnerable for longer than history records.
Do you think we developed a brain to move the body parts that somehow grew without the brain’s involvement or did the brain somehow develop without the help of the body we know has to function to develop it? Why are creatures so varied in design? Can you really believe that not only was there such a fluke that we have developed from single celled animals, but that it’s happened on many occasions to produce such an array of other animals and plants? Why are there still single celled animals now? Shouldn’t they have evolved into something else? Isn’t it possible that the same desire in you to plan and create goes back further than you give credit. You’re right in saying that I don’t have all the answers… Just one. I am fully convinced that God exists. Much of the rest He has informed us of Himself.
Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
3 And God said, “Let there be light,†and there was light.
9 And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear..
11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land…
20 And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth…
24 And God said, “Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: the livestock, the creatures that move along the ground, and the wild animals….
26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image…..
(Pretty straight forward stuff.) It explains why we are what we are. Designed to resemble the one who started it all. Surprisingly (for those who are able to read with an open mind), we’re told that God made the light before he made the bodies that the light comes from and He made the creatures and then instigated the reproducion process. I maintain that if evolution was correct, our multiplication would be much more likely a process of parent cells dividing, as with bacteria.
Scoffers like you have around since early times. They witnessed amazing things but still refused to accept that God is responsible for them.
John 10:
25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father’s name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30. I and the Father are one.â€
(These same miracles are still happening today, especially in countries where people don’t or can’t rely on themselves for provisions. For some people like the centurion in the paragraph below, they won’t get it until it’s all over)
Matthew 27
52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
54When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!â€
Just remember, each part of the evolution theory you can’t prove (which is basically all of it), makes way for an alternative explanation. It seems to me that a wise person will calculate the outcome of their choices. If I’m wrong, I lose nothing. I have a deep satisfaction with my life. If I’m right, the best is yet to come by far. Either way, evloutionists can only hope for my worst possible outcome.
Luke 16
27“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’â€
Take care,
Duane
Duane,
Happy to discuss the matters, quoting large chunks of the bible isn’t welcome and adds nothing to the discussion.
I don’t have all the answers, and neither do you. You don’t know how many people in the history of the world have a belief in your god the way you do and to claim that billions of people have that belief, therefore it is right does not justice to you.
I don’t pretend to understand how the universe came around, I don’t think it’s mystical, your religion teaches that god created it, that’s mystical. I’d sooner rely on those that study it than crackpot religious theories that are based on nothing more than supernatural wishful thinking.
You’re attempted arguments against evolution are quite bizarre. Evolution has the support of many scientist in many different fields, each testing and re-evaluating as new information comes to hand. It’s not so easy to dismiss with a couple of cheap quips about flying birds and torn skin.
When we look at your god and test for him, there is no evidence that it is there. For thousands of years people have prayed for world peace and that seems to be lacking. This is despite the fact that your god says with faith you can move mountains, even our own earth takes millions of years to achieve this and yet no recorded history has ever shown that a single prayer has moved a mountain. The answer of course is that it’s metaphorical. Who decides what would be metaphorical? The people do of course. Anything that is a bit hard gets to be a metaphor.
When you find an amputee who has prayed will all his heart to regrow the limb and did so, when you can justify the horrible death that people suffer through natural disasters then we can talk.
I think that you would benefit from a visit to a Right to LIfe office to find out the other side. I can understand your approach to this issue but how about finding out the facts from the other side. You obviously think that this issue is sufficiently important to go into print. If so get the facts from both sides Bruce. I think that you would be surprised. Some people start out highly antagonistic like you and finish up being our best supporters and better than most of our supporters–why? Because they are honest people at heart and once they see the truth they act on it and act on it big time.
Thanks for dropping by Greg.
I have no interest in visiting a right to life office -what a silly idea. And I’m not sure why I need facts from both sides when one side bases it’s facts on fanciful stories contained in the bible that have no bearing on modern Australian life.
I’m pretty clear on this.
A woman has the right to an abortion. It’s not for me to try to tell her otherwise.
End of story.
Greg Byrne You say that you don’t need to visit a Right to Life office? Then you say that ” one side bases it’s facts on fanciful stories contained in the bible that have no bearing on modern Australian life.” How little you know about the Right to Life movement. The first thing that all Right to life branches recognized was that they operated in a secular if not atheistic environment and therefore their arguments had to be based upon human rights. I have been in the movement for 35 years and speak from experience. Why don’t you go there Bruce and find out and make a liar out of me. I know that Margaret Tighe used to be at great pains to avoid anything with religious connotations because she would have been laughed out of court if she were to operate on the basis of religious arguments. Avoid making a fool of yourself Bruce. You are becoming a laughing stock.
Secular hey? That may be true, but no doubt the real reason that you and others are there is because of your misguided religious infections. The human right is simple, you have no right to tell a woman that she can’t have an abortion.
Someone avoiding religious connotations sort of shows their real motivation and just how out of touch they really are.
I’m not a fool, nor a laughing stock, but thanks for your input.
Maybe I do have religious motivations but the real question is whether I am right or wrong. The Right to Life movement may well be religiously motivated but that does not invalidate its arguments which are human rights based. I have requested that you visit a Right to Life office to get the facts and avoid making a fool of yourself. If you do that it will be a “win – win” situation for both of us. You will be better informed and therefore cease making foolish comments about people like me. I think that behind it all Bruce you are afraid of what you might find out. You would then have to repudiate the positions that you have taken on this website and attack the people who supported you. Isn’t that what this is really all about Bruce?
It’s really very easy Greg, religious motivation invalidates your argument – there is no god, and with that simple fact clearly understood the whole organisation of right to life falls apart as the main motivation is no longer there. The human rights issue here is that of the woman’s right to decided, not you or me or anyone else. Right to Life is a fringe organisation having little impact on abortion laws in Australia. Your attempt to appeal to my sense of self-worth by telling me I’m a fool saying foolish things is a waste of time and a rather pathetic attempt to get me to comply with your ludicrous suggestion that somehow a visit to this office will change me and I’ll suddenly have my Damascus experience. What this is really about is yet another christian attempting to tell others how to live their lives by trying to bully me into a course of action. You’ve called me a fool and told me I’m afraid. You said I’m uninformed which means ignorant. I’m none of those things.
Now unless you have some new information, I’d be happy to leave it here.
You have very definite views about abortion and have gone into print very aggressively. On that basis, if you were really scholastically inclined, you would want to see both sides of the argument. You would want the FACTS. Regardless of how religiously we are motivated I believe that we have the facts. I’m pretty sure of myself but you come across like a little boy about 4 who, when told some information he doesn’t want to hear, puts his hand over his ears and says “You’re mad, you’re mad you’re mad”. Grow up Bruce and start acting like and adult.
Oh please, that is just such nonsense. You have very definite views too, and you pursue them aggressively. You seem to have decided which facts you want to believe and that is fundamentally driven by your religious conviction which no doubt is along the lines of life is sacred from conception to natural death. Before you can even challenge me on whether or not I know the facts you need to get rid of your naive concept that all life is sacred. There is no god, there is no sacred. At the end of the day my view that a bunch of christians have the right to tell a woman whether or not she is allowed to have an abortion.
I’m delighted that you are pretty sure about yourself. I too am confident that I know the facts.
Thanks for the advice on growing up and the quip about being 4 years old. That has helped your cause.
The crux of this argument is here: “Before you can even challenge me on whether or not I know the facts you need to get rid of your naive concept that all life is sacred”.
So all life is not sacred then Bruce?
Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Tse Tsung, Saddam Hussein and Milosevic thought along similar lines. In total they caused the deaths of about 150 million. Maybe my comparisons are extreme. But did you know that about 60 MILLION BABIES have been killed in abortion “clinics” since Roe V Wade?? IF you had gone to a Right to Life office before raising this topic you would not have left yourself open to this response.Greg
This is a silly response. Life is not something that should be taken away from anybody, we differ on when ‘life’ starts. However it is not sacred, i.e. not holy and not from any sort of god. As far as I know the people you highlighted killed those that were alive, not foetuses, although I’m sure there will be a few of those. To even suggest that I find this acceptable because I think abortion is OK is childish of you. Life is indeed of great value to those that have it.
I’m aware that there are plenty of abortions going on around the world. I’m glad that the decision to abort is made by women who are able to do so and not restricted by outdated religious dogma that attempts to force its view of life on to them.
I didn’t no leave myself open to any response, stop trying to pretend you’ve got some sort of secret knowledge, you are simply parroting the same information that religious people do when it comes to the matter of abortion. Your arguments are pointless and extremely silly.
Let us say that neither of us really knows when life starts. If we don’t know if an embryo is a living human being or no the safest play is to give it (he or she?) the benefit of the doubt and assume that it is a living human being from conception to natural death.Many distinguished scientists argue that an embryo IS a living human being from the point of conception. Are they right or wrong? Let us say that we don’t know. I don’t know if they are and you don’t know that they are not. Because the issue is in doubt surely we should give the being the benefit of the doubt and DEFINE it as a human being from conception.
No, I don’t agree with your starting point.
Life starts at birth. It’s as arbitrary as suggesting it starts at conception and makes much more sense.
You and your distinguished scientists can define human life where you wish. It’s of no matter to me whether you are right or wrong.
Still paramount to me is the right of a woman to decide, not a bunch of middle aged men.
In my last post I said suppose we say that we DON’T KNOW WHEN LIFE BEGINS. That is all that I can say for certain. But you on the other hand say that life begins at birth.
Professor Singer said that life begins a month after birth or that the person is not declared human till a month after birth. He was attacked for supporting infanticide. His response was that people who believed in abortion had no right to criticize him because they supported something similar a bit earlier in the piece. This led to his party being ostracized by the Australian Democrats who gave preferences the Christian Democratic Party. The pro-life movement said that basically Singer was right here in so far as he says that there is no real difference between abortion and infanticide.
But whereas Singer believed in both the pro-life movement believed in neither. Singer was very consistent just as the pro-life movement was very consistent. This is the trap you fall into when you argue that abortion is OK but infanticide is not OK. You cannot draw a line in the sand and say this far and no further. If infanticide is not OK then neither is abortion.
I know that life starts when a baby is born. I’m happy with that. You can say it begins at conception, that’s fine, I disagree with you.
I don’t agree with Peter Singer. I don’t agree with murder of babies once they are born. I’d call that drawing a line in the sand. Just like late term abortion has a line in the sand or a contract for sale of a house has a line in the sand.
I haven’t fallen into any traps, you insist on telling me what it is I agree or disagree with, and you’re just plain and simply wrong.
You may have noticed that Peter Singer says these things but gets little support and the only people really picking up on it are right-wing christians who make the mistake of believing Singer is somehow representative of the way atheists in general think.
That’d be a trap you’ve fallen into.
Most people who are pro-abortion make the mistake of deciding when life begins. Peter Singer is no more in error than you are in saying that life begins a month after birth. He has made an arbitrary decision just as you have Bruce. As I said earlier if we are not certain when life begins we should say that an embryo is a human being right from the start.Otherwise we are like Peter Singer deciding on arbitrary points of beginning. To avoid infringing the legitimate right of a fellow human being to live we have to adopt an approach in which there can be absolutely no doubt. I know that you would not want to kill a fellow human being and you have rightly distanced yourself from Peter Singer. If Peter Singer was here he would say that you have no more claim to be right than he has and he would be right in so saying Bruce.
No, most people who are pro-abortion are not making a mistake. Life starts at birth. That’s the way it is. You desperately want life to start at conception, so much so that you have made a arbitrary decision that that is when life starts. Good luck to you. I disagree that there is some sort of right for life pre-birth and I again say that it’s not for me to make that decision, that rests with the woman who has to make the decision based on her life circumstances. It’s a tough call and governments all around the world accept that as the right. I also disagree with Peter Singer, what he thinks of my viewpoint is of no interest to me. Happy to discuss it with him if the opportunity presented itself, but I doubt that will happen.
As to claims of right, each of us look and make decisions about what works for our ethical framework. I don’t like your ethical framework, I’m happy to tell you so. I’m what is called pro-choice for women, you on the other hand are arbitrarily telling other people how to live their lives in situations that you have no right to be involved in.
Back in the 1970s a survey of leading abortion advocates showed that all of them agreed that abortion is the taking of a human life or killing a living human being. One of them was Mary Calderone MD and another was Dr Alan Guttmacher .
And… what about it? Back in the 1170’s people thought the earth was flat.
Hi Greg,
I thought I’d seen the last of this thread long ago but I find new emails popping into my inbox.
You seem to have brushed some dust of the cobwebs here and I didn’t want you to feel alone with Bruce.
Greg, You and I are confident that God exists because we have taken the time to know Him. I’m sure you will also have experienced wonders that human reason can’t explain when praying to God who does.
He has left many historical documents to support what you and I understand (like the Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls) and even the mounting physical evidence that has been recovered from around Jerusalem but sadly, Bruce can’t see things from a perspective that he refuses to explore. He will reject your challenges to experience the reality of life for himself, because it’s easier to comment and accuse from the sidelines. He states that life is precious but that it is futile and without purpose.
He will say that your views are senseless, because his reference point is himself. If Bruce doesn’t believe it, it can’t be true. On the issue of ethics, I suspect he would be more traumatised by the burning of the Australian flag than seeing unborn babies flushed down the toilet or scraped off wombs like bugs, just because they aren’t well enough developed to know they have value and be able to articulate that. Intervention is not the act of challenging abortion, but abortion itself. It’s totally unnatural to poke stuff into our bodies and use chemicals to interrupt a process that is imperative for human life to continue. We can’t just argue that things are right or wrong because government law dictates, but I’m not saying anything you don’t already know. Bruce has already admitted that he would have to think long and hard about how he will act when the law is rising against any convictions he may develop. He has the luxury of an underdeveloped conscience, which results in few issues for him. The complexities of life can then be reduced to one statement…. Everything is ok if it’s within the law of the land and not hurting anyone who’s already been born, but don’t oppose people if you honour something greater than your own opinion.
Bruce accuses Christians of being delusional and stereotypes them at every opportunity. How can you take his rhetoric seriously or even expect him to add weight to a debate if he values personal preference and opinion over life itself. Of course his label of “delusion” for us has no more accuracy than his statement of God not existing, which is based on ignorance. Anyone with reasonable observation skills will be aware that faith is not related to intelligence and I’ve had this discussion with him already, yet he still ridicules people of greater and lesser intellect than he for their personal experience and understanding. I also note that a portion of the pro-life movement are not religious and that some Christians do not appear greatly convicted on this matter, but Bruce fails to address this in his unfounded, slanderous attacks. You’re time will most likely spent elsewhere talking to people of real influence in our world.
All this aside, hope you’re well Bruce. Not much seems to have changed around here.
Duane
Duane,
Thanks so much for dropping in again. As usual there is so much in your comments that is just not right, but you already know that.
Let me just pick you up on a few things. Your knowing god is just wishful thinking, as is any idea that he has left evidence. Historical documents like the Dead Sea Scrolls are written by humans.
Life is not futile and without purpose. I love my life and I love the lives of those around me. We have a purpose. To suggest that because I don’t believe in crazy supernatural things means I have no purpose is really just plain and simply ignorant on your part.
An Australian flag is a bit of cloth that is symbolic, I am not traumatise by it’s burning. A proper medical procedure to abort a baby should be the right of any woman and what I think of that is not relevant.
Thanks again for your summary of my personality, way off the mark, but thanks again.
And yes, I’m extremely well and off to have a futile Friday night dinner with my family that has no purpose.